Joining the military as an officer

• Video duration: 33 minutes 47 seconds
• Transcript date: June 1, 2022

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Welcome to the Military Moves podcast, brought to you by USAA, where we talk about things related to the major moves that you will face during your military career, from joining up, to moving to a new duty station, deploying, or separating out of the service. We're here to help you know moves to make. Now, here's your host, Lieutenant Colonel retired Josh Andrews.

Have you ever wondered what it's like to join the military? Are unsure if you want to be an officer or enlisted? Maybe you don't understand the differences. In this episode of the Military Moves podcast, we will be talking with Fred Dufault, Military Affairs Relationship Director at USAA and retired Army Lieutenant Colonel, about his experience while joining the military, his path to becoming an officer, and also ask him about the different ways available to become an officer. Fred, welcome to the show.

Morning, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. Well, before we get into our discussion today, could you give us a brief overview of your military career?

Yeah, absolutely. So I am, as Josh mentioned, a retired Lieutenant Colonel. I retired just after 20 years of service in the Army, Army aviation. I was blessed to be able to fly helicopters for 20 years in the Army. I fly the Black Hawk helicopter. I still do it a little bit on a civilian [INAUDIBLE] military side, too, right now.

But came through ROTC as my port of entry into the Army. Had the opportunity to go to the military academy. Chose ROTC. Lucky enough to meet my wife, who is a West Point grad. So we've got both of those covered. Kids did the geographic Bachelor experience with my wife for about 14 of our almost 20 years in the military together, and just because it worked career wise for both of us.

She was able to, after leaving the military, she was able to pursue a civilian business career. So yeah, four kids. Life is good.

So basically, in your household, you had the gamut of what we're going to be talking about today really, from the ROTC, to the service academy. So you could definitely had that experience, to talk about the differences of those.

Absolutely, Josh. And I actually got a chance to teach at West Point. So I've got the Army covered, both ROTC and the academies, for sure. But yeah, absolutely-- experiences, both serving and teaching, being assigned to those institutions.

Well, that's good. So the first question that I want us to talk about today is really one that a lot of students or recent high school grads are asking themselves, probably, right now. And that's why did you join the military?

So for me, early on, I'd love to be able to say it was for patriotic reasons, or for the flag, or for fighting for freedom. But there was an element of that. But as a high school kid, I got the opportunity to join

ROTC in high school. And so I did four years of high school ROTC, Junior ROTC. And that kind of, in some ways, set me up.

But it was really, for me, initially, it was out of necessity. I grew up poor. Parents weren't in a position, really, to help a whole lot with putting us four kids through college. And I'm the youngest of four. So it was a way to pay for school for me.

And so yeah, it was really out of necessity. But really, I kind of knew-- my dad served. So I knew that I wanted to serve also. And yeah--

Yeah, and so it sounds like it may be, even though it started out of necessity, you obviously did a full 20 year military career. So obviously, along the way, something changed, to go from I'm just really looking for a way to pay for college-- which, I think there's really nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's a wonderful opportunity, a wonderful way to pay for college, and serve your country at the same time.

But obviously, 20 years, that takes commitment. So obviously, along the way, something changed, or you caught the military serving bug.

Yeah, I think for so-- for many of us-- and some of us go in, whether it's enlisting, or becoming an officer, or whatnot-- we go in knowing, believing in our hearts we're going to stay 20, 30, 40 years. The number is 17%, right, of--

Yeah.

[INAUDIBLE] actually stay. So that's a pretty small number. But I was I think I was mature enough, even going in, to say, you know what? I'm going to do my initial term, and I'm going to make a decision. Fortunate or unfortunate, with Army aviation, it's really a seven year commitment, initially. So when I hit that seven years, I'm like man, I'm three years from being at the top of the hill.

Yeah.

[INAUDIBLE] 10 years, I'm like, well, I'm there. So I only have 10 left. And I was loving it. I always say I never had a bad day in the Army. [INAUDIBLE] at times, but never had a bad day. And I think I just kind of look at life that way. But yeah, the Army was good to me. I enjoyed it. It allowed me to exercise leadership and serve.

And yeah, absolutely, it was about service for me. And even after I left, my wife left, like I said, at 12 years, as a [INAUDIBLE]. And she always said she still, as a military family, she was still serving through me, and felt that way. So yeah, it's definitely an honorable profession. But it's in your heart to serve. Yeah.

Yeah, and that that's similar to the way I started out. So obviously, I retired as well, 20 years. I did 11 years active duty, then the last nine in the reserves. But when I wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, it really wasn't for-- I mean, I wanted to serve my country, and I love my country. But it wasn't purely patriotic type feeling.

I wanted to fly fighter jets. I mean, that was my shining rock. That was my overarching goal. And then obviously, the longer I stayed, the more I just wanted to continue to serve.

So how did you decide which branch to serve in? Why did you choose the Army?

Again, I think it was influences, a lot of influences in my life. I don't think I was set on the Army. I would tell you that, because my dad served in the Army National Guard, and my ROTC instructor was a retired chief warrant officer four from the Army, who was a helicopter crew chief and gunner. And there was a little bit of influence there.

But as I was applying-- and I know we'll probably talk a little bit more about the different opportunities, service academies versus ROTC, later on. As I was applying, I kind of left it open, to see what service offered me. And like anything else, it's about creating options and opportunities for yourself. And I had some good mentors in that regard, educator mentors. My parents, neither one of them went to college. I'm the-- again, mentioned I was the youngest of four.

But also, neither, none of my sisters or brother went to college either. So it was those teacher educator influencers that really helped me along. The Air Force-- again, I, too, kind of had the bug to possibly fly. My mentors always said they saw me as an infantryman, [INAUDIBLE], in a lot of ways. I don't know if that's a good or a bad-- as an aviator, you would think it wouldn't be a compliment.

But when it comes to shoot, move, communicate, I think I look at it as a positive. But I applied to all the services. The Air Force Academy turned me down first, and on the Academy. Navy and Army gave me offers. I kind of really didn't have any interest in the Navy. Didn't want to live on a ship for any time in my life. Grew up north in Minnesota. So that just wasn't familiar to me. So I think it kind of drove me that way

Army ROTC again some of my closest influences-- I had some mentors who, even before while I was in ROTC, were professors of military science, and kind of always talked Army. So I think that's probably why I gravitated that way.

OK, well, that's good. So it sounds like really, does those influences was kind of what directed you to the path you chose. But my next question would be, if someone's out there, they can obviously pay for college by going to the officer route, right? And they can serve the country through the officer route. They can also pay for college and go the enlisted route. So really-- and serve the country through the enlisted route, so both are obviously options.

So, I guess a two part question would be, share with us. What are really the differences between that officer and enlisted route, and why did you choose the officer route, one over the other? Kind of to help someone who may be weighing the differences, and which route do I take-- help them kind of narrow down that decision.

Yep. Yeah, Josh, as you know, for me, education is the most important element of any of it, right? So-- my-- I encourage kids first to go get their college degrees. Now again, I know a typical college degree in class, or four year straight via Zoom, or however you're doing it, may not be right for everybody. Some kids are interested in trades and whatnot.

But when it comes to enlisting versus an officer, I think you kind of-- you've got to look at it in a couple of different ways. As an officer, you really have to, I believe you have to think first about being a leader. Because it's your job [INAUDIBLE]. You and I, in the Air Force, in the Army, we led first as officers. We had to learn our trade. But we led. You have to lead first, and you have to know your trade as well or better than your enlisted and non-commissioned officers, warrant officers.

As an enlistee, if you enlist in the service, you're going to go to basic training, and understand and learn your trade first, and not-- and I don't say it in a disrespectful way. But you're going to follow right, until you grow up enough to become a leader in the military. And officers are much the same way, whether you come through the Academy, or ROTC, or officer training school, or candidate school, you're going to kind of follow that path, too.

But most officers don't go to basic training. Most of the officer producing pathways don't-- they have a basic training element. But you don't go to basic entry training, like you would if you were enlisting in the Air Force, Navy, or Army, Marine Corps. So I think it's about leading first. You want you want to prioritize your education.

I always try to encourage kids and people, even adults, to prioritize their education first. And if they can't afford school, do the ROTC thing, or even just go get their education, and then the opportunity to enlist afterwards. If you're joining because of money, or you want those education benefits, there's nothing wrong with that, too. And it's about again a heart and a life of service, committing to serve.

So if I was going to do it again, and I think, quite honestly, Josh, I think I would probably join the National Guard as a high school kid. I didn't get a basic training experience in the ROTC route or the Academy route. I wouldn't have gotten a basic training experience. So if I was going to do it again, I'm not going to lie. I think I would go the National Guard route, even if I decided then to go to the Academy or [INAUDIBLE] ROTC. But I would get to experience basic training as an enlisted soldier first, [INAUDIBLE] first, and then probably do ROTC or the Academy, outside of the Guard, and then transition that way.

Because, again, in my 20 years, I didn't-- I couldn't talk from experience about what basic training did for or would do for a soldier, or airman, or sailor, right? That's the only thing I think I have a regret of, maybe, is in the path I chose, was not getting to truly experience a basic training experience.

Yeah, OK. And you know, and as you mentioned that, we're obviously, in this episode, really talking about what it's like to join the military as an officer. But you, in that one comment, opened up a whole other topic that'll be another episode of, what's the difference between active duty, National Guard, and reserves?

Right.

And how do I choose all that? Because they're very similar, have same missions. But they're all very different in terms of what it's like. And I really like what you said about how officers, they lead first. And enlisted really get to their trade and follow first. But some of the best leaders I've ever served with were actually my senior non-commissioned officers, I mean, just over the time and the experience they've gained, as they've risen through the ranks, and leading the airmen underneath them.

Some of the best officers, and some of the best lessons I learned as a young officer, was from my very experienced senior non-commissioned officer that I actually-- that actually reported to me. You know, I was in charge of them, essentially. But I was learning from them at the same time. Because they had so much more experience, and so much more leadership experience.

Absolutely. Same thing on my end. Again, that officer, non-commissioned officer relationship is so important when it comes to command and command teams. That-- and we actually train that. Again, [INAUDIBLE] ROTC, it's a four year process. Going in the Academy, it's a four year process, right? As you get into your junior and senior years, and you start understanding small unit tactics, and relationships, and how important that is in your education prior to getting commissioned, one of the main topics-- and we, would spend probably a solid month on it, teaching it, both at the Academy and in ROTC.

I got to be a professor of military science and ROTC also. So teaching those seniors about that relationship is critically important. [INAUDIBLE] your first platoon sergeant, everybody remembers, much like meeting your first drill sergeant, or your recruiter, as an officer, your first platoon sergeant, when you get to be a platoon commander, everybody remembers that guy or gal. And yeah, it's those non-commissioned officers that teach young officers how to be soldiers, airmen, sailors, and help them along.

And it takes, again, a very mature non-commissioned officer to grow a young officer. And then again, it goes back to, I think you and I would agree that the best quality of an officer, a young officer, is being humble, and maybe keeping your mouth shut more than your ears open, right? Because [INAUDIBLE] for us to learn early, and not act like we know everything.

Again, those airmen, those soldiers are going to come to you for advice and look to you for advice, because they believe more than them. That non-commissioned officer probably knows you don't.

Yeah, definitely.

Maybe some life experiences, because they may not have had a traditional college experience, or Academy experience, or whatnot-- but that's where the education comes back in. And that's where we get to give back. And I think that's where it's important, for those, during that four years of officer training, or however you do it, if you do at officer candidate school, that five to 17 weeks, you've got to draw on that experience, so you can then give back, teach, coach, mentor your subordinates.

Yeah, definitely.

Or professional.

Yeah. So in the pilot community, in the Air Force, we had a saying for the young pilots, when they're in the briefing with more experienced pilots, is never pass up the opportunity to shut up. Because it's just keep that mouth shut. Listen to those who have much more experience than you do and learn. And that's your job right now.

But I like the fact that, when you brought up being a professional professor of military sciences. And so for those who may not exactly understand what that is, could you describe that, what that job entails, and tie that into the process of, how do you really just become an officer? What's the steps to become an officer in the military?

So every service has mid to senior level leaders that lead within the officer training realm. ROTC is no different. So when you become a senior major, O4, which is kind of the middle management within the services, you get an opportunity to apply in any of the services to become a professor of Naval science, aeronautical science, or military science. Those people are critical.

It's a board selection process. You basically come out, and you command or lead, depending on the service, in that area of office, developing and creating officers. The nice thing about it is, you get to be a part of those kids coming out of high school, applying for ROTC. Because there's a requirement for if you want to go ROTC and look for a scholarship. Prior to doing that, you've got to conduct an interview with a professor of that service science.

So you actually, as an ROTC leader at the college level, you get to have a hand in interviewing all those kids coming out of high school, and trying to go that route, again, if they're looking for a scholarship. It's not the only way to go to college. You can, if you have a way, you might be serving in the National Guard at the same, time in a simultaneous membership kind of program, to pay, and then pay for ROTC, until your junior year, where you would need the contract.

But, so coming into ROTC, there's an application. You can Google it. ROTC application, you know-- again, very easily found on the internet. It's a relatively long process, a bunch of pieces put together. But once you get one service done, and complete in the application, the other service [INAUDIBLE] are almost exactly alike.

So again, you heard me say earlier, it was-- I learned early. It was about options, and opportunity, and creating those for yourself. So apply to all the services. And that's the recommendation I gave in ROTC. Apply to all the services' military academies, and let them tell you no. [INAUDIBLE] the opportunity for two of them to say, you know what? Hey, it's [INAUDIBLE] us, and you get to make a choice.

The key for anything coming up in trying to enter into an ROTC, or a military academy, or officer candidate school, is to be well-rounded. You have to be a scholar, an athlete, and a leader. We use [INAUDIBLE] qualities-- scholar, athlete, and leader. If you're a high school kid, junior high or high school kid, you need to start thinking about that now.

Lead in your community. Join the sports. Try to become a captain of your sport. There's-- you have to show that-- it's such a competitive environment out there, that competing as a scholar athlete and leader will help you your application be better, and be more competitive, both ROTC and with the academies. I hope that answers the question.

I think it does. And so, and it's nice. Because you have Fred here, who is a professor of military science-- obviously well versed in the differences between service academy, ROTC, and OTS. And my job as a reservist, after I left active duty, I was actually the admissions liaison officer for the Air Force Academy, until I retired. So for nine years, my job was to help anyone in South Texas and Central America who wanted to apply the Air Force Academy, helped them apply and do the interviews.

So Fred is exactly right. We called it, at the Air Force Academy, it was a scholar who's an athlete and who's a community servant. Because you're looking for that person who desires to serve. Because that's what the military is. It's service to nation. So we look for those traits in service to community.

But you mentioned two your contract, right, in your junior. I've heard that there's different types of contracts in ROTC. Can you kind of just briefly break that down, to kind of clear up the confusion on that?

Sure. Yeah, so you can apply for-- when you apply for a scholarship, ROTC scholarship, again, there's a little bit of a forced distribution. But the best applicants are going to be offered four year scholarship, and then three, and then two. The services are doing less and less every year full four year scholarships. Because once they award-- they say they award Josh Andrews, high school senior, a four year scholarship. And he takes it to-- you can take that scholarship to any school, any college that you can gain entrance to, right?

So you've still got to take your ACTs, SATs. If you want to get into Stanford, if you want to get into University of Minnesota, University of Arkansas, whatever, you've got to gain entrance there. But if they give Josh that four year scholarship, and Josh decides, early on in his freshman year, it's not for him, that scholarship got went unused.

So with ROTC scholarships, there's four, three, and two year. The services are kind of morphing to give more two and three years than four years. They're still giving [INAUDIBLE].

Understand also that in ROTC, the first two years, just like at the military academies, it's what we kind of consider free. It's-- you don't have to make [INAUDIBLE] commitment until your-- till after your sophomore year. If you show your junior year, you have now, what the services will call contracted. Now you have a commitment to the service.

But the first two years if you attend a service academy, you have the option to decide not to go back your junior and senior year, and you don't owe anything. Scholarships are a little bit different in college. But at the same time, there's a way out if you kind of get into it and realize, you know what? I don't have a servant heart or attitude. I don't think this is right. there is an opportunity to back out of it.

But you become a junior or senior in either the academies or ROTC, you have a commitment. If you choose after that, typically, they're going to ask you to either pay it back, or you're going to go serve in an enlisted capacity, to pay that, those academic dollars back to the government.

Yeah, so you're going to pay it back one way or the other either through money or through service.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now that's different, obviously, very different than the service academies, which is full four year paid scholarship, correct?

Absolutely, yeah. Each of the military academies, they typically bring in anywhere from 1,200 to 1,400 kids a year. They want to graduate around 1,000 per class every year. It is a full ride scholarship. Many kids are recruited on sports. But you still, at an academy, you're going to be in the upper, probably, 20% of your academic class, even if you are a sport recruit by one of the academies.

You also, not only do you get your tuition at an academy, you get that full room and board. You're going to live in the barracks, or the dorms. And you also get a paycheck every month. It is full military service at an academy. You become a member of the Department of Defense. You get a common access card.

ROTC does not. You aren't actually earning federal service time until you commission in ROTC. At the academy, the day you stepped foot on the Academy and start school there, you are earning federal service time. It doesn't count towards retirement for pay. But it is-- it does get entered on your DD 214, on your paperwork, that says it was a non-service service to our military.

Yeah, and that's exactly right. Because when you look at my documents, because I just retired, I retired at 20 years and two weeks. And so I was commissioned May 31, 2000. But my document says date of initial entry into military service was June 27, 1996, when I stepped foot on the academy. So I had that additional four years, where I have the card, and the security clearance, and under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It just doesn't count towards retirement.

And what's great about it, too, is even if we want to bring it back to USAA, every cadet that receives an appointment is eligible for USAA membership. And that's kind of cool, too. ROTC, if you're on scholarship or contracted, junior, senior on scholarship, you get treated like an officer at USAA. So pretty awesome.

Awesome. So we've talked about service academy. And I want us to come back a little bit more on the differences a little bit. But let's talk about this third thing called officer training school, OTS. And that's-- a lot of services use maybe some different terminology. But it's essentially kind of the same principle. Could you talk to that a little bit?

Yeah, absolutely. So whether you are straight out of high school, or you've chosen to enlist first in one of the services, once you attain a certain rank within the service, if you are enlisted, you have the opportunity to apply for officer training schools, what the Air Force calls officer candidate school. The other services primarily call it.

But it is, depending on your discipline, anywhere from five to 17 weeks of training. And what that does for you is, it is essentially the third way for the services to make officers in our military-- military academy, ROTC, and then officer training or candidate school.

You can enter officer candidate school or training school right out of high school. It's difficult. Those are difficult. You have to go to basic training first. And then you would move into-- you would go straight from basic training to your skill training, and then to officer training school or candidate school. It, primarily, it actually produces more-- OTS or OCS, all services combined, produces more officers than any of the other ways.

There's about-- there's close to 10,000 officers. Each year that are brought in via officer training school or candidate school. ROTC is just less than 8,000, and the academies are about 3,500 or 3,700. So it is the largest way. What's nice about that is if the services realized that they need a few more officers in a year group, they can make them a little bit faster than they can. It doesn't take a full four years to do that.

Benefit of going officer candidate school or training school is that, again, you're going to get a basic training experience. You're going to get to feel, live like your enlisted airmen or soldiers do. So you get that full experience. And then, also, but at the same time, you probably served-- that's if you came in right out of high school.

But if you come in through the service, you probably served anywhere from two, to five, six, sometimes 15 or 16 years before you attended officer training school. So the services kind of use it as their accordion to grow officers a little bit faster, and say, hey, you know what? The Air Force knows they're a little bit short officers for this year group, because not enough came in through ROTC or the Academy. We're going to offer a few more officer training school slots to some non-commissioned officers and make them officers.

If you come in through the service, it requires an officer recommendation for you to apply to Officer training school or officer candidate school. And if you were like me, I had a long cut short of, need to attain these certain things, whether it's physical, mental, moral requirements, before I would write a recommendation for you to go to officer candidate school.

So I want to make sure you're in good physical shape. I want to make sure you're able to think, and know how to think, not what to think all the time. Because you're now asking to be, as a primary job, to lead airmen or soldiers.

OK. So it sounds like no matter which route you take, either a military academy, ROTC, or you serve, and then go through officer candidate school, you still get to that same point of, I'm an officer in the branch that I'm serving in. And I will be a leader. Is that a true statement, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Just a different pathway. You can also-- go ahead.

Now, I was saying, so if it's a different pathway to the same thing, then what's the differences between the three? Is a simply experience? The experience of going to a service academy is much different then maybe at a civilian college, or an ROTC, which is very different than through officer candidate school. Is it the experience of the three?

Thank you very much for listening to part one of our conversation with Fred on what it's like to join the military as an officer. We will continue our conversation with Fred in part two, where he will focus on the differences between ROTC, service academy, and officer candidate school, as well as giving us some insight into some of the benefits and restrictions that come with military service.

So our hope is that you will better understand what becoming an officer in the military is like. For more information and resources to help guide you through the joining the military process, and even create a personalized joining the military timeline, please visit USAA's joining the military experience at usaa.com/militaryjoining.

Also, if you haven't done so already, consider subscribing to the USAA YouTube channel to get notified when additional content like this podcast is released.

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